Dear Aminiel

In a while we will be hosting a Spades tournament here in the Playroom. We have had complaints that people in teams may cheat. We of course cannot stop this completely but we would like to have the option to select a time limit of say 60 or 90 seconds at the start of each round for people to bet on the number of tricks they will take that round. We think that if people are unable to select the number of tricks they think they will get for the round within the selected time limit they should be deducted 30 points automatically. I guess the table master could select the number of points people will be penalised for during the game if they fail to bid on time at the start of every round.

Hopefully this can be introduced before our tournament starts as it will help a lot!

Hello,

Sorry, but I don't see the usefulness at all.

Unfortunately, cheating is a risk when making a tournament with teams. We can only hope that people will be honnest.

I think it sounds like a great option, I personally don't know how one cannot see the usefulness of it at all...it is one thing to say we will not do it, but the usefulness of the idea is apparent and speaks for itself. It also adds a higher level of skill to the game, just as adding the time limit to cribbage. Ninety seconds is a perfectly reasonable time to bet.

Aminiel it is very useful because at the start of a round you can wait for ages while players are bidding and you know they are asking what cards their oponent have. I should know I have done it before but not in a tournament. I know I have not played in a Spades one before, lol. We want games to go through quickly and we do not want to wait around while players ask their partners How many spades do you have? how many? diamonds? have you an ace of hearts? What clubs do you have? As saprolto said it worked well in Cribbage. I agree you do not need it while players take their turn but at the start it will be a great improvement on Spades and I am sure it will prove to be very popular.

It was like when I first asked for a time limit in Uno when people had plus 4's. That is now part of the game and you were against that too at first!

Dear Aminiel

We all are aware of the fact that people tend to consult each other when playing spades in team which, in the first place is against rules and in the second place it takes a lot of precious time that can be used playing the game. It can be also very frustrating for other players / spectators to wait on a player over 3 minutes each round while they decide how many tricks to bid. That makes a game very long and not an enjoyeble one.

Adding that option though, will effectively reduce cheating, will make a game significantly shorter, more challenging and, as it was previously said by Sopralto, will add a higher level of skill to the game.

We'd be grateful if you could review this request one more time considering all what was said above, before taking your definitive decision.

Many thanks

Teardrop

When is your tournament ?

Yes, having a time limit for your turn makes sens for many games in general, but I'm really unsure that it can especially be useful against cheating. Even if I add an option to disable PM during the game, it's impossible to prevent a team from being on skype. Even 30 seconds can be largely sufficient to say to the other person what to play or not to play.

Some time ago for a spades tournament on the French part, we finally switched back to an individual game because of this reason. It's sad because a parthnership game is, I completely agree, definitely more interesting.

I could imagine that in tournaments in real life, experienced cheaters even invented language or gesture codes to avoid being caught. The same problem exists for Jass. It's very difficult to control, it's really a question of trust and respect.

Sorry but isn't this the whole pointo f making a team game?

The tournament will most probably take place in october.

I agree, it is impossible to completely stop
players from cheating, but adding a time limit will make it more difficult for them to consult each other, as they will have to be in a hurry. It will also save time and thus shorten the game.

@everything We would like to use it even for an individual competition.

Regards

Teardrop

why not just if you have solid evidence that a team is cheeting, kick them out the torny

@dardar Any example of solid evidence?

People dare to cheat even in real life tournaments, how would you prove that a player is cheating, being connected with them only via playroom client,not having any chance to hear/see what they are doing?

that would be down to admin judgment my friends, who ever hosts the torny would judge that one.

We can insist on people joining us on Skype if they enter the tournament and also sending us their transcript if that makes people feel happy lol but that is not for me and the players would not like that too, so it won't happen.

There are 2 benefits Aminiel to having a time limit at the start. Firstly to limit cheating witch I am sure you will agree it is not a bad thing.

Secondly it saves time for games. Let's say for example we have 16 teams and that means 15 Matches (31 with 32 teams) and we save 90 seconds per round and there are 5 rounds you save 7 minutes and 30 seconds per game. That means a saving of 2 hours and that is an estimate I don't think that is a bad thing so hopefully you can do it for us. If it is unpopular you could always reverse what you have added later.

Hello, sorry but I think also that it is not a very good idea to make a game in teams, because it's also possible to cheat even in the current game and playing an indidivual one we can avoid it from happening. Shout me if you want or take out the hammer of the justice, but that's what I think about it. I hope the game won't be turned into a disaster... Regards.

As you said dardar you are "not great at Spades "so I take it you won't have played many team games of spades witch means you are not a very experienced player so know little about what goes on at the start of games hence not being able to offer any real solutions!

As we have said we cannot rule out cheating completely but limit it plus save time and that is the basis of our argument. When people see this in practise and yess you could apply this to Jass they will see the benefits for both games. Perhaps, Aminiel more people will be willing to try a team tournament in The French part too!

As I have said many times here if you do nothing you will get nothing as you only get out of something what you are prepared to put in. When we hosted the cribbage tournament people put their trust in us and we had nearly 32 players in the first day witch was also due to hard work as well from the rest of the team. I know when I do something I will give my very best to make it work to the best of my ability and I know that is the same for the rest of the team so when we offer to help on anything you will know we really mean what we say and will give everything to make it happen !

I've played spades enough to know how to play and how it works.
Just because I said that, doesnt mean I dont know how to play, what i ment was i dont often play any more i usually play monopoly

The tournament is very near now so have you a definitive answer to our request to put in a time limit to the start of the bidding process in Spades!

Thanks

YNWA

At the moment nothing is implemented. In fact I haven't really stated. There is still a big unanswered question: what the playroom is supposed to do in case the time limit is hit ? Automatically set a default bet of 5 tricks ? Kick you off the game ? Give you a penalty of -500 points ? None of those answers seem logical or fair.

you are right Aminiel.
I think that who requested this, did omit what you said above.
Moreover I don't see any utility of having time limit in spades, just for making people to stop cheating. Who really wants to cheat will make it even if there's time limit or no.

If Aminiel and Cristina read through my original post they will see I answered the question succinctly and to the point. I suggested that we put a time limit of 60 or 90 seconds at the start of every round. It had 2 benefits. Firstly it will move games along and that is good for competitions as teams took a long time to decide on how many tricks to take. I said this would limit cheating as it would give people less time to tell each other what cards they had. I was never saying that was anybodies responsibility to stop cheating as we know if people want to cheat there is nothing you can do. Although, those points are a real benefit for the tournament coming up and the game in general. I also suggested that the punnishment would be a deduction of 30 points or the table master could manually set the points deduction at the start of a game.

i see only one advantage of this time limit, and it is that it can reduce the duration of each game, but that's all.you can't stop cheating this way. it can take some users, especially those who have learned to act quickly with the speed of lightning in uno, less than 30 seconds to tell their partners how many tricks to bet or they will bet.

Hello guys

Although you have refused idea of having skype conversation in the tournament, i would suggest you to think about it again. at least to have it with the players who play that time. that may help.

I agree that there should be a time limit at the beginning of each round and I believe that 60 seconds is ample time for that. I would prefer not to have to skype during the tournament while I play as I know I would get distracted and distraction is not a good thing while having a tournament.

We won't have the tournament on Skype. It was more a throw away comment. It was to highlight rediculous measures you could try to take to enforce good play. It is a game and not prisson!

You don't seem to understand that, even 30 seconds is more than sufficient to shit if you really want to. I can be with my team partner on skype or whatever, in which case 5 seconds is sufficient to give any clue on what to play or not to play, and no one on the playroom can have control on this.

As already explained: unfortunately we had the experience once in the French part, runnign a partnership tournament is very difficult.

I'm still convainced that it won't prevent cheating. But it will annoy honnest players who may not be experts in the game and able to evaluate their hand in 30 seconds. Personally, I wouldn't take part in the tournament just because of such a time limit; I know that I'm quite slow compared to other people and there are great chances that I get caught just because I'm too slow.

This is also quite unreasonnable because there is no real default action we can agree on in case the time limit is hit. In poker and uno, it's not the same: everybody agree that, in poker, if you take too much time, you fold; same in uno where you simply skip your turn. Simple to understand and working. But here, your turn can't be skipped with a default action that is reasonnable from the gameplay point of view.

I know how people cheat I have done it myself but those are in friendly games. As I said it would limit cheating and I think you can agree it isn't a bad thing. I am spacifically talking about when you bid zero that is where a time limit is effective. Even on Skype can you ask a person what spades do you have, what hearts do you have, what clubs do you have and what diamonds do you have in say a 30 second period while deciding what tricks can you take. It will not be easy. I still think it would be worth giving it a try even as an experiment. You could always reverse it later on. It also will have the advantage of moving on the game. The tournament has now been postponed as Teardrop has had to go away for a short period so the next available date will be November 14 as that is the next international break in football so there is more time to make the changes!

As for people not wanting to enter the tournament because they would be too slow really had a damaging effect on the Cribbage tournament where we had nearly 32 players sign up within the first 24 hours. I think having a time limit there would have more effect on people that were not quick or great at maths. It did not stop them then and it won't stop people joining the spades tournament. The time limit we asked for was only for the start not for each turn so I don't think it should be too much trouble to try it!

The truth is that a tournament should provide fun and not pressure. If it would be possible not more than it generates the will of winning.
The pressure of playing with time limit is strange and cause of it the players are often making mistakes. But the pressure generated by the will of winning makes the game to be funnier and exciting.
Moreover a spades game, or jass, or french tarrot, where we should have enough time to check our cards then to make our bet, can not be compared to those games, like cribbage, uno or poker, where it is only about luck and the time limit doesn't matter so much.
So, the organizers should bring fun and entertaiment for all those people who want to compete and for those who just want to watch the matches as well.

It is up to the hosts how they want to run a tournament and it is up to the players if they wish to take part or not. If you host a tournament you can decide how you want to run it!

Of course, but I am sure that everybody would want to have fun and this is the most important.

You can find people who cheat in every game where cheating is possible. I don't see any point in adding a time limit option in this game. I don't like to be a repeater cause what is said it is said. People can cheat perfectly through other ways, tipically Skype, team talk or PMs.

Even in a simple game like 99 they can cheat very well by telling the second player or the third one what to play.

Cheers.

Nobody has ever said it would stop it but limit it. Is there any harm in giving it a try after nobody will break a finger trying it. It will also save time as stated before. It is clear it won't happen as Aminiel has already shown he don't want to do it or if he did it would be done by now.