No love for the more complex games?

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1. Sevrior,

Quite tragically, I'm finding that it is nearly impossible to get a game together for some of the harder games. Namely, French Tarot, and even 4 player jass. It seems the entirety of the platform is currently devoted to uno and 1000 miles, which is unfortunate. Anyone else looking to play these less common games?

2. Fawaz,

We usually play Jass, although my self I prefer Apples with 3 over Jass. French one I learned once, but since i didn't play for very long time barely remember anything now Haha.
but still I guess I can get back, but barely I find a running table as you mentioned.

3. Vojvoda,

Talk about it, I can count on fingers how many people are playing chess here

4. riad,

Well for chess you can create a table and someone will eventually join after not too much time, but for the other games mentioned here I have previously played Jass with 4 players but I'm not remembering it that well, about French Tarrot I couldn't even learn it, and it's the only game I'm still not able to learn here.

5. everyone,

Yeah tarot just has way too many rules for me. Jass is fun though, but I haven't played in a while so I might end up making really stupid mistakes.

6. YNWA,

There are a number of reasons why people don't play them. It is down to language, lack of people playing them and lack of teachers who are prepared/able to teach them. If your friend is playing a game that you can't and really loves that game you will be more willing to learn the game. Even if we had more helpers then they may help a bit more but they wouldn't be able to spend quality time with one or two individuals so they know how to play a game well. I have helped a Romanian for example and that Romanian has helped to teach other Romanians that particular game so having a knock-onn effect is one very good way to grow the pool of players who can play the game.

One of the other problems is the rules. The English for the rules is quite frankly bad especially in the games that have been here for more than 2 years. Having said that they need to be much mor simplified and I can't see that happening here as there is no flexability between each part of the platform. Aminiel's idea is trying to make all the different platforms the same as the French part. that is fine in theory but in practise it won't get bums on seats as we say in Football. You have to adapt to the people that use this part of the platform.

7. Carinchen,

I am often looking for people who wanna play the little exam

8. Cristina,

I've taught many players how to play french tarrot, jass, belote and many other games, even if my english is not so good.
So, the language is not a problem.
Some of them play those games mentioned above, or do not, cuz simply they do not like, or consider them too complicate, especially that french tarrot.
i like all of them and you can invite me to play whenever you want.

9. Aminiel,

Hello,

I don't doubt that your arguments are valid, but they don't explain everything alone.

I say so because in the french part, that's the same, and we don't have any translation problem.
That's also more or less the same in italian and spanish parts, and since the translations have been made by native speakers, I'm sure they aren't bad.

The problem is general, that's a fact: players don't read rules. They want to play immediately and the game must be fun from the first minute on.
When you buy a new machine, do you read the manual? probably not; you are excited to try it as soon as possible, at which point it's whether intuitive to use and then you say that's cool, or not very intuitive and then you say it's shit.

For games that's often the same unfortunately. On one side, it's quite easy to understans how a dice game works after a couple of rounds even without reading the rules, and so it's quickly fun; same for a few simple card games like ninety nine.
On another side, monopoly, Uno, dominos and 1000 miles are extremely popular; many people already know how to play them before coming on the playroom; so anyway have no rules to read or perhaps just for a few reminders.
Remains all the rest: games that aren't especially popular world-wide, and/or aren't that easy to enjoy without making some intellectual effort at the beginning. Sadly, these games have quite a restricted public. By chance that restricted public makes a small solid and faithful core, and so these games won't disappear.

For the particular question of bad rule translation, I'm sorry, my english is terrible, I know.

In fact I should perhaps consider making an english translation team, as it is for other languages. In the meantime before such a team exist, if you have ideas on how I could improve the translations (and why not my english by the way), please tell me.
To be a translator, you must be a native speaker, and it would probably be slightly better if you have some french notions. The question native from where, whether american or british, is open... I have no idea what would be the best for the entire community at once.
Also with a small risk: if the english is revised by a native, it will become higher; very good for natives, but perhaps much less good for the majority of non-native. Opinions on this?

10. Badgirl,

I am surprised Aminiel that you complain about your English which is not even bad at all. It is obvious that there is no way to make everybody happy at the same time, by the same thing or game, so to my mind you just should continue the good job you do and me personally finds complicated games more interesting even if I am uno lover :D

11. MagicalKrrish,

hello all,

From my experience, I've notice organising a tournament for any games here sort of urges people to learn them. For instants Uno is so popular here because you might have seen alot of uno tournaments which runs here over a year. In my opinion if you really want these, other games to be played more often then why don't you try to organise a tournament or atleast a fun tournament and i m sure others might just learn it, just to take part.

Just food for thought.

Regards Krish "MK"

12. YNWA,

I have taught many games here like you have Cristina but it is not so easy when you teach people that know less than say 1000 words in English. When that happens you would need a translator so in that case language is an issue. As I said before if a Romanian player knows that game then other Romanian players can get help from that player in their own Romanian language. You have done that Cristina having learnt it from other players that can speak English. Aminiel's point is valid that people stick to what they know so would already know Monopoly, Uno Etc. Aminiel is correct people just get it out of the box and start to use that product and figure that out for themselves. I have done that too but thanks to the internet things are much easier that way now.

You said Aminiel that people in the French part even with a good understanding of French still have issues with understanding the rules and that's my point. What is needed is what we call a "idiots guide" to the games. There needs to be a more detailed explanation of the rules in as simple way as possible. It is what is called Plain English. This is my teaching method and has worked here for many users of the playroom. My point was that the rules where possible in French, Spanish, English etc, etc, need to be written individually so people can understand them much easier. It will not solve all the issues but if more people understand them then you potentially have more people that can pass them on to others in other languages thus the greater number of players will be able to play the harder games to learn.

You asked about American English and British English. For the quiz there is a massive difference and people will find that out for themselves. In terms of written English it is not so great a difference. Americans tend to Ize everything so I guess you will be Aminielized! (Sorry for my bad joke) .

Three months have passed since the Quiz was supposed to get going so progress will be slow with the translation too as you will find you will have the same issues when getting people. It's depressing when some really good people put their name down to help out!

13. Sevrior,

I used to run tournaments eons ago when I frequented the playroom. Perhaps I'll get back into such things.

14. YNWA,

To a certain degree Krrish you are correct. As I said in previous posts there are many factors involved. Scientific War is a recent example of where there was a tournament for a less popular game. Yes that went well but I don't suddenly see a huge amount playing it now. IN England people really liked Wimbledon and were mad about tennis for 2 weeks and after the tournament people never bothered about it. You have to have many factors to improve the amount of games people are able to play. here.

  1. Clearer rules and instructions in plain and clear English for more to understand.
  2. More people prepared to give up their time to help people learn more of the games. there is the added benefit of gaining more friends that way.
  3. Creating tournaments for those spacific games.
  4. Aminiel to look at the possibility of adding a links page to instructions in more languages that don't have their own platform such as Arabic, Romanian and Turkish.

15. fire-starter,

i'll agree with ynwa on here. Some instructions of the harder games are just hmm, how to say it... dificult for some to understand.

16. bogdanmuresan,

Hi. To be honest, I would like to try French tarrot but I don't see tables. Can someone help me learning tarrot? Also someone told about tournements. There is a way to integrate a tournement mode in the client, like the old all in play or cardroom? It will be cool to enter and checking the available tournements and subscribe to them.

17. Cristina,

Bogdan I am romanian like you, then I could help you to learn french tarrot whenever you want.

18. bogdanmuresan,

Hi. Thanks so much for your help.

19. YNWA,

Below is the corrected streets for some of the Monopoly boards. Not everything was wrong so I have left them but as you can see there is quite a few changes. That is how they are written in English I have not changed any place

EUROPEAN BOARD

Vilnius.

Riga.

Schiphol airport.

Sofia.

Bucharest.

Warsaw.

European parliament.

Bern.

Helsinki.

London - Heathrow airport.

Stockholm.

Vienna.

Lisbon.

Madrid.

Athens.

Dublin.

Roissy - Charles-de-Gaulle airport.

Copenhagen.

London.

European justice.

Luxembourg.

Brussels.

Amsterdam.

Rome.

Frankfurt airport.

Berlin.

Paris.

SUPER BOARDOF 12 NATIONS

Linz.

Vienna.

Schiphol airport.

Rotterdam.

Amsterdam.

The Hague.

Lisbon.

Electric company.

Porto

Braga.

London - Heathrow airport.

Barcelona.

Valencia.

Madrid.

Naples.

Rome.

Bologna.

Roissy - Charles-de-Gaulle airport.

Bern.

Zürich.

Water works.

Geneva.

Hamburg.

Vaduz.

Luxembourg.

Namur.

Oil company.

Brussels.

Liège.

Marseille.

Lyon.

Kennedy airport.

Paris.

London.

Dublin.

edinburgh.

Telecom company.

Chicago.

Zürich airport.

Los Angeles.

New York.

No Milan in the Italian part I am surprised.

Latest edition by YNWA, Feb 22 2017 14:33:06

20. helleon,

bogdon yeah you're right the tournaments on all in play were sick (as in cool) with real prizes and all of that. I do not think they will ever happen or would work on playroom, especially as the creator has work commitments and other such things and finds it hard to manage the playroom as it is already. Also, all in play was payed, and not free.

21. YNWA,

You should be grateful that it is free and there have already been some wonderful tournaments here and not just hosted by myself but many others that are prepared to giv up our free time so many others can benefit. Aminiel has created many wonderful games witch many of us have enjoyed for many years and hopefully many more years to come.

My biggest gripe here is that more people need to be part of the Playroom staff as many are only too willing to give up more of their free time to make the playroom even better for everyone. Many have enjoyed this playroom and will be only willing to give something back as a way of saying thank you! If I know something is great and there are ways to improve it then I will always push for it to be better because I know I can help to make it much better. Helper's can't honestly tell me that they have enough of them because if that was the case they Would have sorted out the Quiz and the translation out by now.

I will end with two sayings. there is no I in team and No me in team. ok I lied here is another. Together everyone can achieve more.

22. sound2,

For me it's a matter of interest. I do read the rules if it's something new. But it doesn't always make sense. I mainly come on here for the chat. If I want to play something I use rs games for that. If the rules were rewritten I might just try those other games.

23. Oana-tN,

hi. i enjoied the tournaments very much. i learned some new games because of them and that is realy nice. i would also like to learn new games, etc.

24. balasana ,

Firstly I wonder what is a "hard game" by definition? Personally I found Uno to be the hardest game on PR, even harder than chess. Yes, I had learned how to play Uno elsewhere but at the snail's pace comparing to how folks are playing here. I can count all my Uno wins on PR with less than a single hand.
So "har" could mean too fast to someone like me, or too complex to someone else. I agree imperfect instruction could turn away some new players, but people like Krish, Fawaz, myself and many others who pretty much know the rules of all the games still have preferences. I believe our personality and/ or the friends we hang out with on PR also determine what games we end up playing here. I personally have found Tarot somewhat tedious, or even boring, but I love Jass. That said, I'd play anything with friends. Krish can tell you I play Uno with him every day!!! lol
Aminiel, I will never be able to speak French as well as you speak English. So please stop being too modest lol
Krish had a good point on organizing tournaments to draw players to otherwise being neglected games. I still plan to do a 6 takes tournament some day.
On game instructions, a possible solution is to find an already written one in English on the internet, and add the difference in Aminiel's version. Instructions for games like Backgammon should be easy to find. For those not-so-common games, I, and surely many others here, would be more than happy to help if you need.
We all come here to have a good time, with whichever game we choose to play! Cheers.

25. YNWA,

Aminiel's English is certainly better than my French that's for sure. Aminiel's English is improving all the time and that's why I said games from 2 years ago or older. If they were that bad we wouldn't even be able to play any game because nothing would make sense. There are 2 issues the overall English of the playroom. that is an easy to solve issue. It just needs one native person to go over the English transcript and correct any error.

The second issue is much harder to solve because I am suggesting you need step by step instructions for what are regarded as the more challenging games. It is known as an idiots guide even though the people who will use them are certainly not idiots. It means you automatically assume that a person knows nothing about the game so you write down the instructions step by step, leaving nothing out in plain simple English. I believe if this is done then it will give people more chance to learn the game.

I don't talk of games being difficult or easy as it can put a mental barrier in front of the people wanting to learn a particular game. It is about teaching a person a game and doing it at a pace that they are comfortable with. We have different rates of learning but the most important thing is seeing people playing the game and doing well at it whyle having a wonderful time.

26. Sevrior,

It is a valid point that differing game formats equate to differing forms of complexity, and perhaps I oversimplify when I refer to so-called "complex games."
However, I think the relevant point is the entry barrier. Whereas uno can indeed become quite complex and fast-paced, the base form of the game isn't overly complex. Thus you have a gentle introduction for players of all backgrounds. In contrast, game forms that have a complex introduction tend to receive less attention for that same reason.
I'm certainly not saying everyone should play the games, nor am I particularly criticizing the status quoe. Rather, I am expressing a personal preference for games such as tarot, and reaching out to find others with similar interests in order to coordinate, which is necessary given the relative scarcity and player requirements per game.

27. balasana ,

Thanks Sevrior for clarification. Of course there is nothing wrong about trying to find players for uncommon games. I'm just not sure if the status quo, as you put it, is "tragic". Your first post had prompted me to write down my thoughts; I don't usually post on the forum.
Well if you and some others here think the instruction is the problem, why not take it up on your own to rewrite the current ones in clear plain English? I'm sure Aminiel and those players who wish to learn new games will appreciate your efforts. It remains to be seen though after all the instruction revamp the status quo will change that much. I bet you will still see Uno being the most popular game.
I'm just not sure why almost every topic on the forum evolved into some elaboration of good vs. bad English, native vs. non-native speaker. I've learned the majority of the games here from non-natives.
I'm glad you started the tournament Sevrior .

28. YNWA,

I don't doubt Uno will still be the most popular game in the Pr. What I said is having clearer instructions will help more people learn the game. You said write your own instructions and send them to Aminiel. As a matter of a fact a few years ago I did send some Scopa ones in but they were basically ignored so I can't see the point in that. You only have to look on the forum to see I did propose a team that would have created Quiz party and would have done it very well. that proposal wasn't taken up and I don't see anybody starting it yet do you? If you look at this thread there is corrections for Monopoly properties so lets see how they go.

Latest edition by YNWA, Feb 23 2017 18:33:55

29. Sevrior,

No idea about the status of the forums and the ongoing debates there. As I say, I haven't really been here in a good 2 or 3 years. I wouldn't have a problem with writing rules, however. My French is reasonable, as is my English. :) That would require external prompting though, as I don't intend to devote a day to it if they aren't to be used.

30. balasana ,

Sevrior, maybe send a permanent message to aminiel to make your offer? I think Tarot might benefit from a rewrite. The rules are a bit confusing, and those who rarely play might not retain much. At least you could send it directly to those who wish to take part in your tournament?
When I come on PR and find you, I'd be happy to play Jass with you. I also enjoy some of the rarely played games: 6 takes, connect 4 or Reversi if you're in.
Ynwa, I don't see the relevance between Quiz Party and this topic. I'm not personally involved in that attempt and have no basis to support either side. You have made yourself heard many times by now and that game isn't going anywhere . Maybe it's not worth your time, drop it and move on?

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